Host May Boeve welcomes civil rights leader Rashad Robinson to discuss what it takes to sustain cultural and political progress.
In this enlightening episode, May Boeve sits down with Rashad Robinson, civil rights leader, and former president of Color of Change, for a conversation that spans legacy, leadership, and the long arc of movement work. They reflect on critical wins like marriage equality—and their limitations—while unpacking what it really takes to sustain cultural and political progress. This episode underscores that real power means more than presence—and the work never gets easier, only deeper.
Links to dig deeper,
About Black Voters Matter and LaTosha Brown
How We Build This is created and hosted by May Boeve
Producer: Phil Surkis
Theme music: ‘Within’, composed by Ruthie Dineen, and performed by Negative Press Project.
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May: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to How We Built This. I'm your host, Mae Boeve. How We Built This is a podcast where we learn about the activists, organizers, and leaders in today's US social justice movements, the movements themselves, and what actions we can take to be, as they say on the right side of history to assist us in our movement education.
I'm talking directly to many of the extraordinary movement leaders. I know about their origin stories, how they cultivated people power, and what we can do right now to support. We're having these conversations in 2025 as we watch Donald Trump's second presidency dismantle so much of what movements have fought for, who gets a voice, a vote, who gets to choose what happens to their body, their family, their job.
Right now, it feels like the only people who win in the MAGA world are a select few, but we know better. My guests and I have been through battles to fight for abortion rights in Zucati Park during Occupy Wall Street in [00:01:00] Ferguson after the murder of Michael Brown. My own work centered on the fight for climate action at the global level.
Through my role as three 50 dot org's founding executive director, the climate movement won. Many things stopped deadly pipelines help secure treaties, and through it built a passion for movement work in the hearts of thousands of activists through our fights. In the two thousands, I came into contact with other movement leaders who fought on different terrain, but with whom I shared a vision for a movement of movements.
We spent many meetings, late nights and at protests talking about how to effectively fight all the injustices and what linked our work together. This pod is a chance to bring you into the conversation. If you don't consider yourself part of a movement. If you're skeptical, especially right now about what movements actually achieve or if you live and breathe these ideas, this pod is for you.
I wanted to do this because as proud as I am, of all [00:02:00] the movements I've been part of, we know we are losing ground. There are not enough of us. My hope is that by looking back at what we have done and what we're capable of, we can help build the map for the movements we need moving forward. I know the stakes feel impossibly high right now.
It's my hope that this podcast can help offer perspective about this moment. The truth is that despite setbacks, large and small, systemic and personal, we can accomplish amazing things. We've done it before. We'll do it again. Today's guest is Rashad Robinson. Rashad has been a leading movement figure for decades well known for building and leading color of change, and with it a contemporary fighting force in the Battle for Racial Justice.
As the former president of Color of Change, he spent over a decade transforming the organization into the largest online racial justice organization in the country, leading major wins across tech, media, politics, and criminal [00:03:00] justice. A sought after speaker and forthcoming author Rashad's Insights have been featured in CNN, the New York Times NPR and Fast Company.
I wanted Rashad on the show because I think he's brave and clear-eyed in his assessment about what our movements need to do better. I admire Rashad for his willingness to speak hard truths in every setting I've seen him in be it closed door meetings with presidents or movement leaders, and his attention to the difference between, as he puts it, presence and power.
And his exceptional taste in food and hats. Welcome to the show, Rashad.
Rashad: Thanks for having me, my friend. Thanks for having me.
May: So the last time we were together, we were having lunch and at the table next to us was Lucy Lou. So I wanted to start by asking you what celebrity sightings have you had since I saw you last?
Rashad: You know, I live in New York City and so, it's one of those places where you can randomly run into celebrities pretty regularly. And folks, [00:04:00] for the most part, leave people alone, which is like a real beauty. I also do a lot of work in Hollywood, culture change, advocacy work. So I end up with folks who, are sort of bold face names and, they oftentimes maybe don't get as much anonymity or privacy, but yeah, no one like directly comes to my mind, um, in terms of celebrities, but I, I feel like, um, at least once a week there is like someone you run into that is, known for something.
May: I love that. Well, I feel like that's what one of the pleasures of hanging out with you is. You never know who you're gonna see. but speaking of yeah. Great people that we encounter. I wanted to learn a little bit about who some of your early mentors were. Who, someone who really impacted who you are today, and how do they shape how you see the world differently.
Rashad: You know, there are like so many people that have played small or major roles. so there's, you know, it's hard to like come to [00:05:00] a person. It's like that's, my mentor. I, I think though, like there was some early interactions I had as an activist with, Julian Bond, the late, leader of, uh, student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, elected official, the chairman of the naacp.
you know, I met. Mr. Bond, uh, Julian through, Heather Booth, who so many activists know and love because she's constantly creating space and being a mentor. And so I could also talk about Heather, but Heather created these spaces where she would bring kind of, uh, heroes of previous movements into conversation with young activists.
And I was in my early twenties living in, a house in DC with other activists, and she brought, uh, Julian Bond around. And I remember, both just being totally, enamored and inspired, by the idea that I got to sit in the room with someone that I studied and, and learn from. But also when I talked to [00:06:00] him afterwards that he, was sort of interested in being in conversation.
He asked questions. He told me the question I, asked was interesting
May: Do you remember what it was?
Rashad: at the time, I was, you know, really interested and I still am in alternative voting systems. Uh, sort of the, the ways in which we think about, how we make democratic power real, especially in a multiracial democracy, and have always wrestled with how our single member districts and the design of our democracy was designed, you know, at a time when only land, only white men could vote.
And as a result it is, not really fully. kind of sufficient for ensuring that we have the type of vibrant, debate, the type of representation that brings multiple voices to the table. Single member districts that are winner take all. And I was very much interested in that and sort of wrestled with that in the room and, and he answered my question, but we ended up staying in, in touch and he [00:07:00] was a person that I would touch base with every once in a while through email.
And it was years later when I was leading the programmatic work at, GLAD that I, reached out to him when we were trying to build, um, more support for allies. And he responded right away and he had his own thoughts about what we should be doing. And I ended up working with him and supporting him on writing a speech that he gave over and over again.
Um, I got to put. Words on paper that Julian Bond would say as he served, as I think one of the most critical allies, on the marriage. Equality fights, speaking in rooms, and kind of talking through Leviticus, and sort of the, the sort of absurdity of some of the arguments against extending, full acceptance to uh, LGBT, uh, gay and lesbian couples.
so it wasn't just that, He was someone that I looked up to. It was the way in which he was open to showing [00:08:00] up. Um, it was his willingness to like keep evolving, and being a leader on issues that, were of its time. and also I, he tapped me in. He knew that I was, um, a person that, you know, admired him and he put me to work and I was willing to do that work.
And I got so much more out of it than of course he did. But I, I still look back at those moments of how much confidence, those interactions gave me. that led me to, other places and spaces and rooms that I would be in where, those interactions made me not just a, a uh, a stronger.
Person walking into those rooms, but gave me the sort of backing to believe that I belonged.
May: Yeah. I'm so glad you brought up both Heather and Julian Bond and Julian Bond participated in some of the anti Keystone XL pipeline civil disobedience actions.
Rashad: absolutely. I remember him getting arrested, [00:09:00] right? he knew who he was in the world and what his leadership had meant. And if you, and if for folks who don't know much about Julian Bond, you should really go back. This was a person who, you know, hosted Saturday Night Live. Who, Was, you know, elected to office and then, was not allowed to be seated because of his, advocacy against the Vietnam War and what Georgia, and then his case went all the way up the courts, um, all the way up to the Supreme Court. Uh, and so he just played such a critical role on so many, uh, different issues and so many different moments.
It was constantly open to expanding, who he saw as, um, and what he saw, as, as worthy of a fight.
May: Yeah.
Wow. So you, you talked a little bit about starting at glad, and I wanted to spend some time on that because I remember distinctly hearing you talk about that experience and how you thought about the gay marriage [00:10:00] win,
which at the time a lot of movements were studying that, including us in the climate movement.
but I remember you had a take that was about, yes, the importance of the wind, but some of the limitations. And so I wanted listeners to understand both the wind, but also your critique of it, and also speaking now in 2025, if any of that view has changed.
Rashad: you know, first and foremost it was an incredible win that was rooted in, one of the most, strategic, visionary, uh, bodies of work that I think we've seen, in the last a hundred years, right? That effort over that period of time to shift the culture, to change rules, to create new sets of standards, to change the floor on what was acceptable and push up the ceiling on what was possible.
It, it just was incredible. But every win has limitations, every win along the [00:11:00] way, can leave people out. Every win along the way, has places where you hope to win more. And that's why we have to always be thinking about our wins, is laddering up towards the next thing, not the last stop, but one stop on the journey.
And so, you know, I really, learned so much during my time at glad, um, working inside of an, an organization where we were really, trying to pioneer, work in the media landscape, um, trying to change the rules for how, what media determined they would put on the air. and as a result, really thinking strategically about how that could shift public opinion and how that power could then build more people that were willing to fight, uh, willing to stand up, willing to tell their stories, uh, from spokesperson trainings to work in Hollywood, to work in news.
It was about setting the standards and about recognizing what our opponents were doing and the marriage equality fight. [00:12:00] that I think was so well executed, you know, leveraged a whole set of infrastructure that in some ways after the fight was over, a lot of that infrastructure went away. And some of the fights that, um, whether it's employment non-discrimination, whether it's other things, um, those fights, um, whether it's, acceptance and, rights for trans folks, some of that, infrastructure no longer exists at the same level.
And so, it does have its limitations, but I, I do think that, It's an important body of work to understand, but I think sometimes people get the wrong, story and they leave out the, I think, really important power.
Uh, that was at play. I came to GLAD in 2005 and what you could say, I. Um, and what you could do to LGBT people changed radically from 2005 into 2011. It wasn't just like a hearts and minds strategy where more people opened up their hearts and minds, which is [00:13:00] sometimes, oh, I watch Will and Grace, and now I'm more accepting.
Someone came out in my family. It had to be combined with a very clear strategy that was about setting new standards, changing, the roles and responsibilities of elected officials, of teachers, of judges, of, changing sort of the way in which mainline religious institutions responded.
Like that level of culture change, which was so critical to advancing policy change, is oftentimes I think left out of the conversation. And, um, and I think that culture change. Is key for us understanding in some ways how the right has been so successful because they too, um, have understood the power of culture change.
You don't get to, uh, president of the United States, that's a former reality star without, their side understanding, uh, what culture can do and how culture can, you know, in some ways, uh, create pathways [00:14:00] to political power that are not only deep, but sometimes way more durable than, policy fights alone.
I.
May: I love what you said about new standards because I think often people who are trying to understand social change for the first time, sort of separate policy change and electoral wins from culture change and maybe one seems easier to digest than the other depending on who you are, but the power of having to do both and a strategy that actually enables both things to happen, I think that was part of what made that win, as you said, so fundamental at the time.
you also said something about infrastructure that didn't last and whew. Is that ever familiar to me?
Rashad: Yeah.
May: So can you, can you just say a little bit more about that? because movement, infrastructure is something that I think a lot of people wanna understand better.
Rashad: Yeah. I mean, infrastructure can be like, like a subway system in New York, right? And I live in New York City. Subway systems are really important. They operate a certain [00:15:00] way, and they can get you from place to place. I, I've, at times, realize that a relationship might not work because of the subway line, um, that like, you know, you seem great, but you know, dude, we are not
gonna work out because Yes, yes.
The G's actually a good example because I live in Manhattan. The G's a good example. Um, and so I, you know, I'm not gonna, it's not gonna work. um, and that's infrastructure, right? Infrastructure can get you from place to place, but it also can create limitations. And, um, whether it's a subway system or a power grid or a series of organizations and the people who engage in it, they all are.
Are there to kind of power, possibilities and they can also limit possibilities. and when infrastructure sort of is funded and resourced and aligned to the moments, it can make a lot of things happen. And all of those things are important, right? [00:16:00] It's not just that the infrastructure, um, has money, right?
Something could have a lot of money. And also like. not actually have impact. And so impact and money doesn't always go hand in hand. And so, when the infrastructure, when a lot of folks were like mission accomplished on marriage equality, and sort of went away, um, a lot of infrastructure, a lot of funding, a lot of support, a lot of the energy went away with it.
And now, right, as we see the attacks mounting up, not just the attacks that have been deeply present on, queer people, who have been targeted and exploited economically, queer people of color, trans people in particular, like, as we've seen, uh, the attacks that have been there, and the attacks only mount up.
we recognize that this is not like vulnerability, like this is that people have been exposed and, and when you've been exposed because you've been targeted, attacked, and exploited, [00:17:00] it's not a personal trait of those individuals. It's a, like a trait of our movement, which in some ways has, sacrificed, the sort of full fight.
because sometimes we win a thing and then we think that that's the only thing to win and we go away.
May: Yeah. Yeah. The momentum goes
away. hmm.
so speaking of infrastructure, I want to remember a. A story from hanging out with you in the past, which is, you know, one example of infrastructure is leadership development and all the ways that we are learning how to be better at our jobs, right? So I, I remember this, this conference or convening that you and I were at, I don't know, 10 years ago.
And we were sitting together at dinner and I didn't know you very well, and I like really looked up to you and I thought, oh, okay. I need to ask Rashad a question about how to be better as an executive director. And I was complaining about some challenge that I was having at the time, and I looked at you and I said, oh God, [00:18:00] when does it get easier?
And you looked back at me like, what, what a question. it never gets easier, whatever we learn makes us better at what we're trying to do and who we're trying to fight for. But the goal is not for the work to get easier. And I have thought back to that story. Maybe a hundred times.
And it's become like foundational to how I worked with people as well. Because that experience where you go through a hard thing, you learn a new skill, and as soon as you've learned it, the next hard thing comes your way. And it's not like you get to coast and plateau in that one hard thing. You got to learn.
And I think for me, like growing up in this small white community and like everything I tried, I felt good about the result. And then here I am in this job where everything is hard. Oh man, it just really knocked me flat. But that advice and the way you shared that story helped me so much.
Rashad: thank you for sharing that story. You know, and, it's interesting to hear my [00:19:00] words because it's, it's both sounds so much like me. And you also have to sometimes be reminded of your own words because we can fall into the trap of wanting things to be easier.
I could say that to you and, and can think about moments in my own life where I too have, wished for something to be easier. But I do think it's important that, who we are plays into sort of how we see the world, right? I am, black, gay, and five three, right? The world is just simply not designed for me.
And when, and knowing that the world is not designed for you, you're constantly, you're navigating that, you know, like, and so like, let's, not, let's, you know, we could like. Take the, the black and the LGBT and a lot of stuff is written at that, but like, take the five three, I have to like, get a lot of clothes made for me, right?
Like, you know, if I've got a, like a wedding in two months to go to and I want something new for it, I've got start now. you [00:20:00] know, I've like dated folks who are like hangers and they can like go into a, a store and they can buy whatever the hell they want. and then, you know. Be ready to go the next day.
And I've been planning for two months. And so there's a lot more planning and focus and work sometimes when the world is not designed for you, when systems are not designed for you, when structures are actually in some ways, um, designed to oppose you. and that planning, that sort of, um, having to, uh, think through the steps one takes to make sure you can show up the way you wanna show up, that, I mean, has been part of my life and my work.
And I, and sometimes it doesn't, and it doesn't mean that I don't at times forget that too, because we are all human.
May: Right. What's a recent hard thing you had to do? New. Hard thing. You had to learn?
Rashad: Well, you know, transitioning out of an organization is a new thing. And really [00:21:00] thinking about how you're, you use your time every day to be effective. Right. I, there are a number of things that I, know that I do really well, that I could be really helpful in this moment. And then thinking about how to do those well when you don't have a full organization infrastructure behind you.
But also recognizing I'm in the middle of like, trying to finish a book, um, in edits. And that, is sort of testing my mind and my, um, smarts and my, uh, kind of consistency in a way. and then, in really building the book, I've also been thinking about a lot of different stories of learning throughout my, Time in this work and my time working to build power. 'cause the book is about power. It's about culture and narrative. It's about how we win, right? and it's really about also helping us, disrupt magical thinking. The stories we sometimes tell ourselves about how change happens.
And right after the 2016 election, I had worked really hard [00:22:00] internally to really pivot my staff and pivot my team, right? We had done so much work, during the Obama years to like, get the DOJ to prosecute police where there may not have been a prosecution at the local level. Um, we had done a lot of work to push on HUD and other entities and, you know, we had petitioned signed up, showed up to protest, um, gotten into the door to do negotiations.
And now we were moving into the Trump years and Trump was a change. The rules candidate going hat in hand to Jeff Sessions or Ben Carson we're not gonna actually be useful. It wasn't gonna be good member service. Asking our members to say, tell Jeff Sessions to stand up for civil rights, like wasn't a good use of time.
Um, it wasn't strategic. And so we had to think about what were the pivots. And I really worked to kind of help our team think about how we went after enablers, how we thought about it. But in that, I was really trying to move people from thinking about opposition and move to think [00:23:00] about opposition movements, not just resistance.
Resistance movements lose all around the world. And I, and I built out this, deck and I was going around the movement talking about how we needed 5% mediators as a
movement, 15% fighters.
May: and the broccoli analogy, which
Rashad: Yes. Yeah, so I just, I very
May: Tell tell people about that. Tell people about the broccoli analogy
Rashad: I, I tell the story now is that like we, we'll, we'll do poll testing sometimes and ask people what they want to eat, and then they will tell us all the healthy stuff. And then if you put them in front of, a buffet, they're going to pick the things that are not broccoli.
And we actually have to understand the difference between what people say they want and what their motivation. It doesn't mean that we just give people french fries, but what it does mean is that we have to actually understand the audiences that we're engaging in and not, pretend, that we do. And so, you know,
the presentation went so well. I was talking about the percentage of mediators [00:24:00] we needed, the percentage of fighters we needed, the percentage of winners. And it wasn't just about winning an argument, but about winning real world change.
And fighters were folks that weren't gonna negotiate with the administration, that they were going to hold the administration accountable and go after enablers. And I had sort of like a flip way, I talked about resistance And I was giving this presentation, to a group of southern activists at a DC conference, and people were loving it. And I was leaving and I was gonna head to the next place. And I was feeling good, and I was in my suit and I was like, felt like I was like on and a dear friend. And, a hero of mine, Latasha Brown met me out in the lobby and Latasha Brown, for folks that don't know, um, is the founder, co-founder and leader of Black Voters Matter.
But I've known Latasha since my early twenties. Latasha, is, the type of person who's, reputation, incredible reputation doesn't even do her justice in terms of both the ways in which she builds movement, builds community and has, um, worked in [00:25:00] some of the most challenging places, uh, with the type of love, that you only have when you love your people.
And Latasha pulled me aside in the loving way that, she could do, and she said, Hey brother, I wanna just talk to you about this resistance, opposition. And she sort of walked me through the resistance work that black women were doing in the south, the history of resistance work when you knew that political power was far off.
And I was talking about, what we had to do to regain. Political power in two years or four years right after Trump. Like, how could we get back the Congress how we could get back the presidency in 2020. And she was talking to me about what it meant to be 20 years away from power. she was talking to me about sort of the, the ways in which sometimes it's just about stopping something, not about actually being able to take over a thing, but in stopping that that creates a new level of dignity, a new level of [00:26:00] possibility.
And it was something that of course, as a queer activist who showed up at GLAD in 2005, where like just getting a gay character on TV was a big deal, right? Where like we had to fight and really push, Fox around making sure that the character on Glee was able to be fully.
May: Yeah.
Rashad: openly gay, right? And now you couldn't imagine a high school show without an openly gay character, but at the time that was actually a big deal. And there was like stories about it and concern about it and all of that. So of course, like I instinctually knew that, but I had gotten into my own rhythm and I, it required someone uh, with love and with smarts to pull me aside and to not tell me that the whole thing that I was saying was wrong, but to give me the correcting pivot that allowed me to like go and both acknowledge the truth in what I was saying, but the [00:27:00] complexity and nuance that would allow for what I was saying to both land and have the impact I wanted to have.
May: Huh. That story gave me goosebumps because Without those course correcting, loving conversations. Right. Where would any of us be in our fight, in our leadership? So many people come to mind when you tell that story.
Rashad: yeah, yeah.
May: Well, and you mentioned it sort of in passing, but I think that example about.
The Glee character is so helpful for people to understand that if you're just receiving this stuff as a consumer of media, you have no idea that there is a thing called an advocacy organization that is out there running a campaign that's influencing writers' rooms, and that's shifting the content that you're receiving as a viewer.
And I, I think people don't understand how much movements create culture when we're at least doing our work well. But that's such a good example of how that changes.
Rashad: Yeah. I've been in dozens and dozens of writers' rooms over the years from my time at GLAD to my [00:28:00] time at Color of Change, um, working to shift crime procedurals and the. Storylines in those shows. Um, the representation of police, the representation of communities, and the, constantly with a North Star of not just changing one show here or there, but mean to raise the floor on what's acceptable or push up the ceiling on what's possible?
And that space between the floor and the ceiling makes so many things possible. And that, is part of the type of advocacy change that, I'm sort of most proud of. It is the, the narrative work, right? Because in, in many ways, narrative is what we, believe, whether it's true or not, People have all sorts of beliefs about, gravity, for instance. And, uh, your beliefs about gravity will dictate how close to the edge you will get of something. but the thing about gravity is that gravity is real. but when it relates to like, things that people may believe [00:29:00] about black people, those things are not always real.
But in the same way that gravity dictates how close people will get to the edge, those things that people believe will dictate how close people get to black people. And whether it's true or not, it has a deep level of power. And so narrative is a tool of change. Not just the object of change,
It's the tool that folks use to change things, think about Make America Great again, as like a narrative tool that has a really clear story that, is specific in many ways and that story of Make America Great again is a narrative tool that underneath it can allow a whole lot of things to happen.
And so you know, when I think about the work that I've led around corporate accountability, around shifting storylines in media, that work that actually then opens up new possibilities for us to win on policy, but also beyond policy win in how people are treated in their communities.
Right? The thing that [00:30:00] I, I, I fundamentally believe about this work is, is that, Whether or not someone rents you a room or not is yes, connected to policy, but it's also connected to culture. Um, whether or not you get treated fairly in a hospital is obviously policy, but culture. And if the culture is not right, what we're expecting is that people have to then litigate every single thing and the opportunity cost of being black, um, of being a woman, of being queer, of being a person of like that extra lift.
And so I remember having this conversation with folks who were, fighting for more empathy and compassion, which is a, a noble thing. But they were fighting it for kind of in the abstract individual to individual, right?
It's when we like mistake racism or misogyny for like individual things, not systems, right? And so. They were fighting for more empathy and compassion. And I was, saying like, that's fine, [00:31:00] but how do we make sure that our criminal justice system is more empathetic and compassionate?
How do we make sure our healthcare system is more empathetic? What is the things that we fight for at the systemic level that doesn't rely on our individual interactions? And, your work to me is so inspiring at the climate level because it's not simply about asking individual people to recycle, It's about a step that people can individually take. that's about caring for your, environment, caring for the individuals around you, caring for the future. But without, a systemic analysis, we think that we can fix these problems by fixing people instead of fixing systems.
May: Yeah. It's one of my favorite debates that we have in movement circles is how do we create meaningful entry points for individual people, especially 'cause we know the movement needs to grow, right? So how do we help engage people [00:32:00] knowing all that we know about the limitations, which is a perfect segue into asking you, How are you thinking about action steps in this moment with Trump, with everything that's going on?
Like how can people listening to this who wanna be in an action oriented posture, how can they do that right now?
Rashad: Well, first I would say join something, get involved Put some time into a, a local organization, a national organization, something that kind of inspires you. Uh, but I do think in this moment where so much of, what we've won over the last several decades is under attack, um, is being dismantled, is being destroyed.
Um. You know, we have to, I think, do a better job of going to the far edges of what our opponents are trying to do and actually making that clear and specific for folks. you know, they are trying to end breastfeeding rooms. They are trying to end, special [00:33:00] education. classes and individual learning plans, they are, trying to make it illegal to teach about Harriet Tubman.
Our opponents do actually a really good job of trying to like problematize things that already are popular, right? we will say we have 65 to 70% of Americans that are with us on abortion. I don't have the exact number, but it's around there. then they will say, partial birth abortion.
And then we like lose our mind and we don't know how to argue and we don't know how to engage. We'll say, you know, we have over 40% of Americans who believe that transgender people deserve equality. And they'll say, girls in sports. And then we lose our whole ability to be in a conversation.
And at the same time, they are going to the most radical, far extremes of what, people are able to accept. And we are fighting the last war and not. Able to actually tell a story. And so, the thing that I really am focusing on is what does it mean for us to have a clear vision, uh, for what we want?
And a [00:34:00] vision, has to have a story that brings people in. A vision has to be specific. and so we have to avoid the sort of progressive, uh, speak that isn't specific. It's right, not, this is not just about, protecting Medicaid. Let's get very specific about the things that people are benefiting from that people need the, the sort of services that are being cut.
Let's tell very individualized, specific stories of what is being delivered for people. And the story then has to make sense. and so the more we avoid the sort of political jargon that gets in the way of. The kind of human story of people wanting society to be on their side, people wanting to take care of their families and being able to earn a living, be able to buy the things that they want and the things that they need.
And that in so many ways is, Hopefully gonna be the thing that comes out of this [00:35:00] really horrific moment that we are in is a clearer and more focused way at bringing people into a story, that can make us all proud of the fights that we're fighting. Um, and a story that, doesn't leave people not clear about what we, stand for, um, and what we care about.
How do we, open up these stories of how we've won things along the way, how we've used culture and how we've used, uh, disruption that can ladder up to the big policy victories, but have been the on-ramps, as you say, the on-ramps for people to, feel like they can be part of something and getting more people to be part of something in a strategic way is sometimes the first step towards building the base necessary to make power possible.
May: I'm so glad that this is what you're focusing on right now and this idea that, yeah, people need to be part of something that's believable, and I think that everything that you've worked on and the [00:36:00] way that you've done culture change work. You've done corporate campaigning, you've done the elections, you know, you've fought for people's rights.
I, I just think that all of that coming together in this moment is gonna be so helpful. So. I'm really glad. Okay. Last, question. you were, you were getting into this a little bit, but I find this sort of a tricky one, but what, what is one, one hard truth about this moment? or said another way?
Like, given all of your experience, was there something that you didn't expect about what's taking place right now that's calling on all of your experience to make sense of
Rashad: You know, it's interesting, like in the like abstract, this all makes sense in the actual execution of it. It is jarring and no, I'm not sitting around being like, I knew that was gonna happen. I knew that was gonna happen. Right? Because we are living in,
May: Who wants to be that person right now?
Rashad: Yeah. Uh, not, but, but you know, to be clear, [00:37:00] like there were a lot of signs that we were heading this way and, up until the tariffs the Trump administration had been quite successful at really sort of executing quite well on its plan.
Um, not. the plan that, you know, any of us won, but the, they've been quite effective and, and they, and perhaps a bit more effective than I imagine they would be. but I knew they would be better than they were last time. you know, there's a frame that, You know, you mentioned earlier that has, is really undergird sort of a lot of, um, how I think about this work and I think is also just very appropriate for this time.
And it's gonna be the title of my book. Um, and it's, presence versus power, like not mistaking presence for power. uh, presence is visibility, awareness, retweet, shout outs from the stage. It's, it is like, people understanding what you're doing. And, presence is not necessarily a bad thing, but far too often we mistake [00:38:00] presence for power.
And power is the ability to change the rules. Power is the ability to make the rules. Power is the ability to make things happen that wouldn't otherwise happen. And presence alone, doesn't actually do that. And, and I do think that in this moment, it's gonna call on us, all to be much more clear about the difference between presence versus power.
When we mistake presence for power, we can think that a black president means that we're post-racial. we can think that, America, cheering and loving a black celebrity when they announced. a new album or they've, won a Super Bowl means that America loves black people as much as America loves black culture.
And America can love, celebrate and monetize black culture and hate black people at the same time. And those two things don't actually have to be in conflict. And so when I think about understanding the difference between presence and power as like a framework to then be able to like [00:39:00] think about how we're using our time, how we're, laddering up our engagements and how we're creating the right set of expectations for the work we're doing, it's incredibly important because sometimes the allure of presence, whether it is this social media environment that we're in, uh, with the technology that's in our hands, can be quite alluring.
And in all of that. Is in so many ways monetized against us right now. And so thinking about what are the ways, that, in this current era, we can use our minds, our energy, our collective, power to, force new things to happen and, build the type of power that actually changes the rules. And sometimes those are gonna be, as I said earlier, the written rules of policy.
And other times they're gonna be the unwritten rules of culture. But changing [00:40:00] both those rules are gonna be critical for us, fighting for and winning the type of world that we all deserve to live in.
May: Beautiful. It sounds like you believe like I do, that we can do it. It's just a question of will we do it right.
Rashad: Amen. I wouldn't, I'm an optimist. I wake up every day believing that new things are possible and I. Come from, people who, could not possibly, you know, who I don't know if they possibly couldn't imagine, but imagining sort of the, the world that I get to live in, is a result of so many sacrifices.
So progress is absolutely possible, but progress, is not inevitable.
May: thank you so much for joining Rashad. This has been an absolutely wonderful conversation. I knew it would be, and I cannot wait to read your book.
Rashad: Thank you. Thank you and congratulations on this podcast. I'm looking forward to, uh, hearing all the other guests.