Host May Boeve welcomes Alicia Garza, co-creator of the Black Lives Matter movement.
In this debut episode of How We Build This, host May Boeve is joined by Alicia Garza—co-creator of Black Lives Matter and one of the most influential movement architects of our time. Together, they talk about the origin stories behind BLM, what it really means to build people power, and the personal and political moments that shaped the movement. Alicia also shares unexpected reflections, from imagining a dream job naming nail polish with Rihanna, to unpacking the 2024 election. It’s a raw, hopeful, and necessary conversation about how movements rise, fall, evolve—and persist.
To dig deeper on topics discussed in this episode:
Alicia Garza's book: The Purpose of Power
About “I believe Anita Hill”
About the Ferguson uprising
Heather McGhee's book, The Sum of Us
How We Build This is created and hosted by May Boeve
Producer: Phil Surkis
Theme music: ‘Within’, composed by Ruthie Dineen, and performed by Negative Press Project.
Instagram & Bluesky: @hwbtpod
can find us on Instagram and Bluesky at HWBT Pod, and on Linked in and Substack at How We Build this Pod.
Thank YOU for taking the time to tune in and helping build the movement!
May: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to how we Build this. I'm your host, May Boeve. How We Build This is a podcast where we learn about the activists, organizers, and leaders in today's US social justice movements. We explore the movements themselves and what actions we can take to be, as they say on the right side of history.
To assist us in our movement education. I'm talking directly to many of the extraordinary movement leaders about their origin stories, how they cultivated people power, and what we can do right now to support. We're having these conversations in 2025. As we watch Donald Trump's second presidency dismantle so much of what movements have fought for, who gets a voice, a vote, who gets to choose what happens to their body, their family, their job?
Right now, it feels like the only people who win in the MAGA world are a select few, but we know better. My guests and I [00:01:00] have been through the battles to fight for abortion rights in Zucati Park during Occupy Wall Street in Ferguson after the murder of Michael Brown. I. My own work centered on the fight for climate action at the global level through my role as three 50 dot org's founding executive director, the climate movement won many things.
Stop deadly pipelines, help secure treaties, and through it built a passion for movement work in the hearts of thousands of activists through our fights. In the two thousands, I came into contact with other movement leaders who fought on different terrain, but with whom I shared a vision for a movement of movements.
We spent many meetings, late nights and at protests talking about how to effectively fight all the injustices and what linked our work together. This pod is a chance to bring you into the conversation. If you don't consider yourself part of a movement. If you're skeptical, especially right now about what movements actually achieve or if you live and [00:02:00] breathe these ideas, this pod is for you.
I wanted to do this because as proud as I am of all the movements I've been part of, we know we are losing ground. There are not enough of us. My hope is that by looking back at what we have done and what we're capable of, we can help build the map for the movements we need moving forward. I know the stakes feel impossibly high right now.
It's my hope that this podcast can help offer perspective about this moment. The truth is that despite setbacks, large and small, systemic and personal, we can accomplish amazing things. We've done it before. We'll do it again. Today's guest is Alicia Garza. Alicia is the co-creator of Black Lives Matter and the Black Lives Matter Global Network, an international organizing project to end state violence and oppression against black people.
The Black Lives Matter Global Network now has 40 chapters in four countries. She has received numerous accolades [00:03:00] and recognitions, including being on the cover of Times 100 most influential people in the world issue, named to times 100 Women of the Year list, and is a three time recipient of the Roots list of 100 African American achievers and influencers.
Alicia's first book, which I loved, the Purpose of Power, how we Come Together When We Fall Apart, was released in October of 2020. I wanted Alicia on this show because there's simply no one I know who is more immersed in the topic of this podcast, creating contemporary social movements, what it takes, what we can learn, and how far we still have to travel.
She is also one of the most dynamic and disarming people to pop any remaining bubbles that you might have around these topics. Thank you for joining us, Alicia.
Alicia: Oh, it's so good to be here with you May. Thanks for having me.
May: So my first question, just to get us started is if you weren't [00:04:00] doing this work all day, every day, how would you spend your time? What would be, you know, the other life that you would have?
Alicia: Oh wow. you know, I do have a. A happy place that I go to when, when things get, a little hairy and it is, um, I imagine that I work for Rihanna. At Fenty Beauty and that my job is to name lipsticks, nail Polishes, and other makeup for a living. I feel like I have a special talent around names, right?
Like I named the We Dream in Black Organizing Project at NDWA and then at and t like totally stole it. So whack
May: So them.
Alicia: sow them, right? And then, um, black Lives Matter was my name.
May: Good name.
Alicia: I have a couple other ones. You know, I got a couple under my belt and so I feel Black to the Future Action Fund. That was my,
May: yeah.
Alicia: [00:05:00] baby Black Futures lab, also my baby.
So I feel like I would put my naming skills to work in making the movement look good in a black owned company, uh, that is really paying attention to culture. So that's probably what I would be doing.
May: This is really why we need to solve the problems of this world is so that you can do that.
Alicia: That's what I'm saying. Rihanna, are you listening?
May: Yes, please. Oh, man. Okay. I'm, I'm really tempted to go deeper into this 'cause there was a nail polish naming contest that Chanel had when I was a kid that I entered. And like, I love those kinds of things.
Alicia: That is awesome.
May: of them.
Yeah.
Alicia: I think
May: Chanel, are you listening? Okay.
Alicia: can you hear us now?
May: Oh, man. so many good names. Well, and as you were just saying, you were a central part of leading the most well-known, most impactful, contemporary social movement. [00:06:00] Black Lives Matter. And I wanna dwell a little bit on what it felt like, some moments and stories of what it felt like when you started to understand just how big this was, just how incredible the outpouring was at that moment in time.
Alicia: Well, Mayi, I can tell you that it's a process that unfolded over the course of like almost a full year, and there were ebbs and flows. So I have some distinct memories. one of which was when I was working at Power in San Francisco, people organized to win employment rights and, um. I was a part of the first class of the Black Organizing for Leadership and Dignity Like School, which was, is a place that's bringing together, somatics work with black grassroots organizing and trying to build and forge, a practice that is sustainable, um, in a black ecosystem, which I think is dope.
And I [00:07:00] remember, there being a moment when. We kind of called everybody to a conference call to like talk about the moment and encourage people to use this hashtag and like we're just trying to like grow it, right? And people were super excited about it on the call and they were like, yo, we're down to throw down.
And it was really interesting because we were all a group of people that had had a shared experience, but we were each connected to many, many, many networks. And so. I think about that call as like one of the founding moments of Black Lives Matter. Then I think about, um, you know, uh, a call that Patrice, uh, organized almost a year later, when the Ferguson Rebellion, um, had just begun.
And, she convened a call. That was myself and, Tandiwe, who is an excellent journalist, black writer. I can't remember their last name right now. This is [00:08:00] the issue with age, like you remember faces and the names go zoom, but you know who you are folks.
and uh. I think I wanna say Dream Hampton was also invited onto that call as like speakers and we were gonna kind of process together what this moment meant, um, in the context of Black Lives Matter. I. And I think we thought we'd get like 25 people to join the call and I'm pretty sure there was like 1500 people on the call.
And we were like, what just happened here? how did that happen here? And you know, I tell these stories because I think people often have this image that we have like some red button that we could push and then just everybody would turn up. But that's not at all how it happens. Like so much of it. Is you catching up to momentum, not the other way around.
and so much of it is building as you go. Um, somewhere in between that year may, like literally [00:09:00] things went up. During, Trayvon's murder and then his killer's subsequent acquittal for his murder.
And, then it like went down at some point, maybe like around October or something, like things just kind of ebbed. And I remember a friend reaching out to me, Genevieve, who is awesome, and she hit me up on Facebook or something and was like, dude. You guys are in Law and Order, which you know is one of my favorite shows besides Jeopardy.
And I know it's not like totally Movement Culture E, but who has not watched Law and Order? I mean we all came up on
May: Thank you Dick
Alicia: in my cohort, we came up on that damn show. Actually if you're in the cohort behind me, you came up on that show 'cause they have 85 franchises,
May: So many actors got their start
Alicia: start.
Exactly. So. I was like, what are you talking about? And she says, oh, you gotta watch this episode. It's called American [00:10:00] Justice. And so I find it, and I watch it and it's like, um, you know how law and order was always based off of current events of some type. And so they had taken the Paula Dean racism, scandal.
Paula Dean was like a chef who was found to like, create a hostile, racist environment in her restaurants, while cooking, Southern food and the murder of Trayvon Martin. And so in the mashup of these two kind of situations, um, what they did in the show was they have the Pauline character kill the Trayvon Martin character, and Paula Dean goes on trial.
Where Black Lives Matter comes in is there's a protest and like a whack one outside. It's totally low energy. It's like you can't really tell what's happening, except there are people holding Black Lives Matter signs, and [00:11:00] that is a moment where I was like, whoa. Something happened, like we've penetrated the zeitgeist here.
This is no longer just like a activisty thing. This is like a, this is embedded in our culture. and then the last story I'll tell here is, um,
another way that I knew that this had kind of taken off was, um. I went to some conference in New York and I remember, being approached by some, fellow travelers in our movement. And, they wanted to have a conversation with me. And basically, in that conversation, I think what they wanted was for this platform to take up.
What they were working on in their local area. How I experienced it was like completely [00:12:00] overwhelmed and almost like, bombarded, you know? And that's really when I realized like, oh, this is way bigger than us. And this little project that we are kind of tinkering around with in our kitchens and like, you know, in our communities.
Um. Actually has some really high expectations from our movement and other people see how big this is in a way that I don't because I'm inside of it and have needs from it. Right. Are like. Really yearning and longing to be seen and heard and addressed. And they see this thing as their next shot in being able to do that.
And so processing that, is just an honest reflection on how, um.
There can be a disconnect sometimes with what people's expectations are and what a thing can actually do and deliver, and then there's [00:13:00] always human beings behind it, right? So that's a thing to think about.
May: there's so much to go into here, but I, I think one piece is. What you said about the ebb, and I wanna dwell on that a little bit here because I think for so many people listening, it's hard to follow the plot of movements and realizing that even before, if I'm understanding you correctly, things got really, really big and you are being interviewed all the time.
became a household name in a way that activists never do. There was an ebb right at the heart of that moment, and you had to find a way to remotivate and, oh my gosh, what if your friend Genevieve had not reached out to you and you hadn't seen that episode? We might be living in a different reality right now.
Alicia: Totally. Yeah. I mean, there were several ebbs, because this period was really almost a 10 year [00:14:00] period. And so, I could tell you at some point I knew litanies of names and I still know them like, Tamir Rice and Sandra, right? Like there was all these black people who were being murdered.
And so every time you would think that there would be an ebb, there would be a flow.
May: Right.
Alicia: And the thing that was kind of wild about it is it became a moniker for a generation of, people who. We're getting involved with movement often for the first time. And, there's a dynamic tension inside of a moniker, an organization, a coalition, right?
Like there's all these dynamic tensions in there. And so every single time, right, you would have, people kind of folding in under the banner, but then rightfully, I [00:15:00] think, wanting to create their own space, their own rules, their own way of being and doing and articulating what their vision and demands were.
And, I think that's really important as a. Framework for movements, right? Like nobody owns them, but yet at the same time there are drivers. And so, just to riff off that for like a quick second, 'cause I think it does relate to the ebb and flow I. Some of us have been there from the beginning, so ebb and flow for us is different than, for example, if you come in at a particular moment on that journey.
the same was true for me, like I think one of my most memorable kind of movement entries was during Hurricane Katrina. There's a whole set of people for whom that was a part of their trajectory, right? It wasn't their entry point. And so whereas I was [00:16:00] just discovering a thing
May: right.
Alicia: for others, right? They are the through line.
And so, navigating some of that complicated interplay between organization, moniker. Coalitions and then each new murder, right? Makes a thing begin and end again all at the same time. and it's one of the beautiful things I think about movements is how dynamic they are and, how much movements are mosaics and patchworks and, All of that. Right. So I, I think the way that we learn history, we learn it really differently than the way we live movements. Um, and so I think it's just important to kind of lift up that even in that ebb and flow, what's happening is like a reorganization. It's a. Ending [00:17:00] and a beginning and it's all happening simultaneously.
And as a kinda social scientist, right? It's the thing that's most fascinating to me. It's why I became an organizer. 'cause I'm fascinated by, the process by which people come together and the process by which people fall apart and how those things have interplay.
May: Right. Well, and I'm struck by, and this is true of so many movements, but I think very much this one, what's propelling the flow is pain. I think in this moment where so many people are every day really aware of that and questioning how to motivate, it's a good reminder that that has been true in so many movements, particularly black led movements for so long.
I.
Alicia: I think that's right and I think in black communities, movement is a part of our culture. It's how we [00:18:00] be here. I. And it's how we've been able to remain. And so, I think that some of the catalyst for this last decade is probably really similar to the catalyst for me when I came into movement, which is understanding culturally that movement is a part of our DNA and feeling
May: even that phrase came into movement, right?
Alicia: Mm-hmm.
May: Yeah.
Alicia: I remember feeling like I'd missed my moment to get in because I didn't see movements happening around me. Now, of course they were, but I just didn't see them. I was like, okay, well where are the Black Panthers? Right? I was like, is anybody else gonna boycott? You know what I mean? I was like, what's up?
Like Where is my entry? And I think this last decade, what was catalyzing people was not just pain, it was [00:19:00] also where's my entry? Right? Like, we are always experiencing this level of pain that's racism. And there's like a prophetic joy inside of that too. And I think, an ethos culturally that, We have to do our part to keep it going. And for generations who experienced really different conditions, like coming up under the first black president in the 300 year history of this country, what,
May: Right.
Alicia: right? when I think about my grandmother who was alive during the sit-ins and boycotts and all of that.
I don't think she ever thought that was possible. My mom didn't grow up under that. Like my mom grew up maybe with like more black people in Congress, in positions of power. We got a black person on the Supreme Court during my mom's lifetime, right? but I grew [00:20:00] up, talking about
how we believe Anita, right?
So like there are just all of these tributaries that, I think this generation. Was missing a bunch of components
May: Hmm.
Alicia: and the world had changed in such a way that it would've been easy to feel like you had missed your moment, or it would've been easy to feel like, a moment wouldn't come again, because we have a black president and we have all these black people in positions of power and, and, and.
Black people are still being murdered by the state. How do we reconcile that? so I think this, ebb and flow also sits in a political context of like, it's like the legacy of segregation and integration in just a whole different way. Well,
May: Yeah, yeah. Waiting, waiting for the movement to touch me [00:21:00] is, I feel exactly the same way. We probably close to the same age, but really that searching for movement life really propelled my own work in the climate movement and so many people in my generation. And I think there's so much about the external condition that, That we, you know, we study movements and they, we think they look a certain way and we think they manifest in a certain way. And then you live inside of them and you wanna write a book, you wanna start a podcast and say, hang on a second. This is not the movement I read about in the book.
Alicia: And it's important for somebody to say that, to demystify it a little bit. That's why I'm so glad you're doing this podcast, especially now when our history is, and our futures and our presence are being actively attacked. And that thing that America has always had, that little poison bug of [00:22:00] amnesia is like on steroids right now.
And they're not even trying to hide it anymore.
May: No, it's extraordinary. well let's talk about one of those components then that I think isn't. Easily understood about movements, which is their impact, their lasting impact. And um, this is a question that. I'm very familiar with about, you know, prove to me how this movement led to this change. And I often, and this is in the context of climate, and it's often easier to understand a different context.
So I often talk about Black Lives Matter, and I say, think about a decision you made at your job differently about hiring, about a policy shift that you change in your own behavior. You would not be doing that. We would not be having this conversation if not for this movement. And personal change doesn't happen like that at that speed without movements and to be mirrored by policy change.
[00:23:00] Extraordinary. And so that's one encapsulation of impact. But you know, it's been some years and we're clearly living through this incredible backlash. So yeah. Talk to us about how you understand impact.
Alicia: Well, the way I would describe impact at this moment in time is that We are living rent free inside of the heads of the people who are firing the head of the Library of Congress and like firing five star generals because they're black, um, full scale attacks on diversity, equity, and inclusion, which is like the minimalist program that.
BLM sat inside of, right? Like we're talking about, like, can you stop police from killing us? And they're like, uh, we're just gonna dismantle the programs that make sure that we hire some black people and we hire some women and we hire some people of color. Right? [00:24:00] Like what? Um. And the attacks on basically everything that we care about.
we have experienced a decade of radical change, not just driven by Black Lives Matter, but certainly Black Lives Matter. It's a huge part of it and made all kinds of changes in who you saw on television, what news was being reported. What shows you watch on television, what you learn in school, what practices police have to follow in relationship to protecting and serving a community.
Um, what transparency is available, when policing goes wrong as it often does. there are so many, oh. Home lending and borrowing real estate, admissions, I mean, [00:25:00] everything that you see being rolled back right now is a consequence of advances that we're in part advanced even more. Right. by the movements of this last decade, including Black Lives Matter.
And so, often when I hear people saying like, what did movements accomplish? After I get over my irritation
'cause I'm like, this shit is hard fucking work. What do you mean? What do you mean? I am not in this business of wasting my time? What do you mean? Like we are serious about this. but then I remember that, change is really hard to believe in
May: Mm.
Alicia: because it feels so daunting and we get disappointed so often.
Um, I am so compassionate with that because I am deeply disappointed on a regular [00:26:00] basis. I. And I'm surprised by it now even because I'm like, I know how this stuff is set up. I know whose interests these things are set up to serve. And I'm still disappointed. I'm still disappointed in political parties who take us for granted.
I'm still disappointed in. Just like the deep allegiance to corporations over people. I'm still disappointed. Like, right? Like that makes me human. And for some of us, right, that humanity of like holding disappointment and also belief, is not a well worn muscle, right? we wear that muscle well because that's what movements are containers for in a lot of ways.
But one of the challenges with our movements is that they could be a lot more porous. Right? And so when I encounter that question, I just remember that there are millions of people in this country that are looking for a [00:27:00] movement that they can believe in. And We have some work to do, in making sure that we can be that.
May: I wanna dwell a little bit on some of the obstacles, right? At a personal level and like. Recommitting to the work. and it's a very cringe story for me. I have so many. It's one, one of the cringe stories in the, in the Pantheon. and so, it's a story about my own kind of peripheral experience with what was happening in Ferguson and the uprising, as you said.
And we had a staff member at three 50 at the time who asked if she could. Take time off of the organizing work she was doing on climate and go be part of what was happening and support. And we said, of course. Absolutely. and she came back and we were sitting in our Brooklyn office and I was so, so excited to show her [00:28:00] how supportive I was that she had gone there and I like full of energy.
I run up to her and I just go, you just got back from Ferguson? Did you have fun? She looks at me and goes, just like, fun isn't really the word I would use to describe what was happening. and I just, I just shrunk and I felt so, oh my gosh, how did I even think that, how did I think that was an appropriate thing to say?
I just kind of, oh, of course. And just kind of like walked back to my desk. and I think about that story because. I have so many stories like that, and I know a lot of white people have stories like that, and it, I think helps explain, but never excuses Why we see so many white progressives bowing out of this work, in this moment because it does feel really bad when you do something stupid like that.
and I, I [00:29:00] wanna, I wanna think about that because you and I are talking the other day about this moment and the state of multiracial alliances and coalitions, and. Not good, you said, you know, you said even the, you know, even the Democratic party is saying, oh, we probably talked about race too much in the election, and you said no, we didn't talk about it enough.
And that really stuck with me. And I wanna, hear you explain that because we are in this horrible moment where. People opted out of doing anti-racist work. Even before DEI was made illegal, right?
Alicia: Yep. So.
I am glad we're talking about this, because if there is a consistent heartbreak I have, it's this one. I don't always understand how after 300 years in this country, we just can't be honest about [00:30:00] how we're organized here
May: Mm.
Alicia: and we come up with all these different ways. To talk around a thing and wouldn't we just be better served by like moving right through.
So, you know, I've been through and you've been through a hundred million electoral cycles and it's always the same thing. It is literally always the same thing. If you win, it was great. If you lose, it was black people's fault. What? You know, it's like people could not get enough blackness in 2020. It's like blackness black, that everything black, black, black, black, black, black. We love black. We love black. Like I couldn't, I mean, seriously, I was running Black Futures Lab at the time. And, my ops director was like, I'm really stressed out.
Like the phone won't stop ringing. I'm getting all these emails and people are like, yo, do you guys do stuff with black people? Like, we just wanna give you money. Can we just like, give you money? And we were like, [00:31:00] what, what is happening right now? Why, why is this happening? But as if giving money.
Does something to absolve us of the responsibility of changing culture and changing rules. And essentially they were like, y'all go do it. Right? So there was that. But then in this cycle in particular and the 2020 cycle, this also drove me crazy. And the 2016 cycle, because. There was like a thing that happens where folks in electoral cycles in particular keep chasing these moderate suburban voters to try to persuade them around some stuff.
And I'm like, well, if you're really serious about persuading people, then you have to talk about the thing they care about, which is race. They go, no, no, we don't wanna talk about that. Because they don't care about that. They [00:32:00] don't want, they wanna talk about the economy or they wanna talk about whatever.
And I'm like, that's racialized for everybody. For everybody. And so let me tell you, for moderate suburban white voters, what they care about is feeling like too much money is going to people that they don't think deserve it.
Boom, let's just say it right, that's a real thing. because people are feeling the pinch of an economy that was not designed for them to succeed in it. They're trying to find somebody to blame and often they are blaming those of us, Who, Like them are being marginalized in a range of ways left out and left behind.
And the cold part of this whole thing, MEI, is that there are people to blame and it's not us, right? Like George always says, George Gale, shout out to George Gale. He's always like, we found the enemy and it's not each other. I'm [00:33:00] like, hallelujah. Right. and he is talking about corporate. Oligarchy basically, right?
there's a set of interests that profit off of our misery, and their profit depends on us being divided. That's just a fact. Now, what I also think is really important about this though, MEI, is that. There's been a 30 year at least movement that has deeply embedded a set of lies about whether or not there's enough for all of us. When I came into the world in 1981, Ronald Reagan was inaugurated as president and his claim to fame, his claim to fame. Was Make America Great again. And he also deeply embedded the narrative that black people were to [00:34:00] blame for why America was no longer great. And that was a commentary about the Civil Rights Movement.
I. So he was able to design the set of stereotypes about black people taking advantage of the safety net programs that we fought so hard. Not just for us to have, but for the whole country to have. Right. Okay. So we see the same thing today and I. When I say we didn't talk about race enough, what I meant was that whole program of Make America Great again is undergirded by a nasty white nationalist ethos worldview that, literally encourages.
Political violence, racial violence and like a [00:35:00] eugenics mindset and nobody wanted to talk about that. care about that stuff. Still
turns out I'm not going to equate white progressives who are trying to figure it out around race. With white nationalists,
May: no.
Alicia: okay? There's a thing that most of us can agree with, which is that's not really who we are.
That's not who we are. And yes, we're all bumbling around on this race question, but we gotta drive this thing back underground. This is not who we are. And the mistake. That keeps being made so much so that I'm not sure it's a mistake anymore, is that we don't call a thing a thing and at the best we say that it's fringe at the worst.
we don't acknowledge it because some of us actually do believe [00:36:00] in inferiority and people getting things that they don't deserve or that they didn't earn. The coldest part about all of that may, like the coldest part of it, like ice cold, you know, as three stacks would say, is, um, whiteness as a concept that was designed to, mask with purpose.
Robber barons and what they were getting away with, is the most vapid concept. That's the cold part. It's like if we were to talk about merit in this country, right, the coldest part of it all, is that the concept? Of whiteness was designed to take shit you didn't earn.
May: Right,
right.
Wait, where have we heard that part before?
Alicia: I mean, it's a whole grift and [00:37:00] scam, so we all get that on some level, which is why. Those of us who are working on an anti-racist practice, keep working on it knowing we're gonna fuck up. 'cause it's so deeply embedded in the ethos and design of this country that like there's no way for you to get it right all the time.
You're swimming in this shit just like we are swimming in this shit. And if we had some more honest conversations about how we're all just swimming in it. We might actually get somewhere. Like, I really appreciate the fact that you're like, yeah, I don't know what the fuck was going on with me at that very moment.
And I, didn't do it the way I wanted to and I felt defeated, but here you are,
You didn't stay in the corner. You're like, okay, I'm back at it. I fucked up. Right? I think there's more of that that needs to happen and. Maybe instead of blaming the groups and identity [00:38:00] politics, right? We could, stop following the advice of these consultants that actually
don't have the range they think they do, and in some ways are perpetuating a problem. Rather than intervening in it for the sake of, I don't know, democracy.
May: The stakes are so clear about what will keep happening if we don't make more of these mistakes in service of working together, building the much, much bigger movement we all need
and.
Alicia: Also, I do this. I've done this. Like a hundred times. I've done this a hundred times. Okay. there's so much that I don't know about so many things and, oh, I, uh. I've definitely had the experience of like not acknowledging someone else's experience.
and in [00:39:00] movement context, I will say that, because I'm somebody who's really direct. I can kind of be like a bull in a China shop sometimes, especially when it comes to navigating conflict or trying to help repair conflict. Like my way of doing that is being like, can't you guys just get the fuck over it? We got shit to do. Right?
And so there was a group, two groups that were beef in and We brought them together to do a mediation, trying to be grown, but we weren't grown, you know what I'm saying? And so we had opinions and we definitely were like, all right, well you guys just need to get over it. Like, can't y'all just like let each other be and live? And what I don't think we took into account was that we were older.
And the weight of our words mattered. And also, the way we moved in space mattered. And when I think about what it meant for me to be [00:40:00] a 21-year-old around a 33-year-old, and then to be told my concerns didn't matter, that's shitty. And so here we are still in movement together.
May: Right.
Alicia: And that's the thing about movement can feel really big, but actually wherever you are, it's hella small. And um, I have a sister now, right, who is now my sister, but was a part of this mediation process that didn't go well and, we had to repair. Now she's like my home girl. Right. And it took a long time. That's a thing that happens in movement is often we grow up together too,
May: Yeah.
Alicia: and we get to see a lot of different phases of each other's growth, if we're lucky.
May: that's right. And I think for folks listening who don't think of [00:41:00] themselves as in a movement, you can still probably think of someone who you have a stronger relationship with now because you went through very intense conflict and you made a mistake, but you came together and I think that story, both stories are very important for just reminding us that this is, at the end of the day, individual choices we're all making all the time.
Alicia: All the time,
May: Well, my last, question is trying to not make it like an enormous question, but there's really no way around it, but. when I say the, the phrase action steps or forward momentum, Because we've talked a lot about a lot of really important big stuff, but we're also people who like to mobilize, right?
So, so talk to us a little bit about how we're positioned right now in this moment. People who want to be part of the solution. [00:42:00] Mistakes and all, but get back out there. Right? Speak to them a little bit.
Alicia: Man, every day I go through, different phases of we're fucked and, oh, what if we did this? so if you're feeling that way, I wanna say to you, um, I. Totally normal. We're all navigating and trying to make sense of conditions that have been at work for a while, but are now, have now accelerated, and they're a little bit on steroids.
And so, you might be tempted to try to check out for self-preservation and I also wanna say to you, uh, okay. But just, give yourself a time limit.
May: I love that 'cause checkout implies checking in.
Alicia: Yep. Like there's a lot of us who've been in this shit for a minute and we're tired. And then for others of [00:43:00] us, we have a lot of energy.
And so I'm like, all right, if you gotta tap out for a minute, tap out, take care of yourself, do what you gotta do, but give yourself a time limit because we have like a year to turn some stuff around.
And I'm not talking about midterm elections. We are tasked with building a movement that we've never had in this country before. And, um, it's gonna take all of us and, it's gonna take us being willing to release some things that we are really tied to You know our like very structured way of doing things, very controlled, very like, I'm gonna plan everything for the next 10 years.
You're not planning shit. Let me tell you something. You gotta be able to be nimble in this moment and you also have to be ready to take advantage. Of openings. And so [00:44:00] I'm not saying organization isn't important 'cause it is. And I deeply believe that organization is the smallest unit of movement. Yeah. So I'm not an anti organization person, but I wanna be
clear that like you might be forced to figure out a different way, and so you might as well ease into it instead of fight it. I think there's an incredible opportunity right now for us to lean on relationships and ask people to join a thing, and it's okay that we don't totally know what we're doing, but I do think we do kind of know what we gotta do, which is like
form a credible opposition. To what is happening right now in this country that also points towards what we want and, what we deserve is a system that works for us. We deserve a system that distributes fairly. We deserve a system that produces for everybody, [00:45:00] and we deserve a system that everybody has access to.
So. It ain't gotta be no tenure drafting process. Like we basically get the basic tenants of what we want because we're deeply experiencing all the shit we don't want. And so, my call to action for us, is find a group
that you can get down with. And get down. We got stuff to do and that includes making sure we're taken care of and making sure we're taking care of each other, that we're looking out for each other. Form your safety pods. Have conversations that are hard to have. Drop your weird beef, it doesn't fucking matter. It really. Doesn't fucking matter. I promise you when I think about gulags and fucking El Salvador, and then I think about my weird beefs with people, I'm like, that doesn't matter actually. And if something [00:46:00] happened to this person, I would feel really fucking stupid. So it doesn't matter. Yeah, so drop your beefs.
Weird beefs. If they didn't punch your mother, it's not that serious.
May: right.
Alicia: And also, um, my last call to action would be, get in motion from wherever you sit. You have something to contribute. I'm not saying you gotta go join a protest. You don't, if that's not your thing, I, I feel like I've aged out of this shit.
I'm like, yo, it's just not my thing. I don't like being around a lot of people like that. I just. That's not my thing right now. It's not my best contribution, but I have a few. And so that's what I'm lending. And so I wanna encourage everybody just to think about what can I offer, to the lowest level, compassion to the highest level.
Like, I know how to design shit. I know how to run shit, and everything in between is needed. Um, it's all hands on deck at this point, so let's go.[00:47:00]
May: Amen. Thank you so much for coming, Alicia. This was a real, real
pleasure.
Alicia: Thank you for having me.